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Other alexpill

Discussion in 'Communities' started by Zig, Feb 6, 2018.

  1. Aberidius

    Aberidius Chief Technology Officer Staff Member Administrator Store Support Clockwork Customer

    looks neat, well done ^^
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. VerrockLedorBerk

    VerrockLedorBerk Active Member

    oh wow holy shit
     
  3. As much as the coding effort and whatnot looks impressive, I don't really see the combat as something.. positive, for the overall experience. I've always felt that combat should be, at its core, an extension of character expression. In a more shoot-to-kill, gameplay oriented environment - there's little time to actually think in depth about how your character's traits culminate into a reaction for the situation presented.

    Even if you consider the combat to be something to tide people over in-between narrative events, it just seems odd. I always considered combat/action to be the 'climax' of a narrative, and to throw away the actual depth/real roleplay for the presumably satisfying conclusion of a narrative arc just seems counterproductive. Like, I'm invested in a story, and right at the end it's essentially just me playing a match of Quake or something.

    I hope what I'm trying to say came across properly, but I don't expect you to change design directions this late.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Zig

    Zig Legend Clockwork Customer Active Member

    I understand your concern- the wording is a little confusing for me to get my head around at this hour, but I'm guessing you're critiquing the ideology of having a gamified/skill based combat system interwoven with roleplay. When I first began the core conceptualizations of the gamemode last year, I had the great question of what I wanted to do in regards to making such an experience seamless. The truth of the matter is, I'm still holding true to the fact that let alone- the combat is optional. On top of this fact, the core conceptualization of engaging in combat itself is frowned upon by a "Kill Tower" system where all of the PVP kills a player has are conglomerated into a tally and taken into consideration on the week/annual surprise where half of the server dies from repeated death. The eventuality is that it should be decided that the majority should work together instead of separate into hostile tribes. Whether or not this will be the exact case, is up for debate. Alexpill has always been an experiment from its roots, so I can't say surely how an S2K environment will go. I've taken matters to assure that it's fair, and provides equal opportunity.

    The thinking was supposed to be done before hand when you got yourself into the combat situation, like real life, you're not going to lift your fists and try to jump the fattest motherfucker you can because you know you might have the odds of a mythical fate on your side. If you don't know how to fight, then you probably won't try to fight- and there's nothing wrong with that. Your character's traits are taken into account not literately, but rather through earned soft skills which has affect. People enjoy direct shooting environments because they prove to be more seamless and intuitive than ones that revolve around how effective one's biceps and augmentations might be, instead people can just show how effective they are by using them in combat.

    Okay- but there seems to be some kind of mis-representation. If you don't want that to be your arc, then don't let that be your arc. You have a choice. If you play your cards right, you literally won't die. Combat isn't the climax of any narrative on here, the overarching narrative is the story attached to the server and your involvement- that's your character's climax in the narrative. I don't really understand your point with combat roleplaying being "real"/"depth" filled roleplay, I've never gotten anything particularly grounding from it. One party always loses. These are certain trade offs you make when you decide you want to cut your cake in half and make an enjoyable playing experience and roleplaying experience- the ideology being that I'm appealing to both parties to an extent. I can't satisfy the complete needs of both sides. I know that's understood.

    Yet again, I've emphasized multiple times that it's really not necessary to hold a gun in the schema. I've given people an extremely malleable environment to create practically whatever they want to. While the option is there, the whole point was that if the option was chosen, it was seamless and enjoyable to do. If I misunderstood something, let me know.
     
  5. I think you may have misunderstood my intention behind the argument a bit, yeah. I don't think that combat roleplaying is inherently depth filled -- I'm just saying that combat is often the 'cap' on a narrative. The combat itself is not the depth, the motivation and build is. Two characters with conflicting goals and ideals, in a violent setting/environment... will inevitably lead to some form of violence. Generally, in film and literature, a narrative without that level of conflict generates some level of boredom for certain audiences, especially one that you're likely to be catering to with a more gamified system. If combat isn't the climax of a narrative, or at least contention between parties - I can't see much intrigue being generated between individuals or even overall.

    I think you're sort of ignoring the big thing here with your point about how there's no requirement for me, personally, to make something my arc or take up violence. You're ignoring that the 'destiny' of a character is barely in control of the player, and often at the whims of others. If I'm not interested in S2K-style combat, other players might be. More accurately, if I play my cards incorrectly, am I as a player expected to indulge in a system that I don't care for? It also seems to be ignoring the very real issue that what players do is not entirely within the bounds of what another character has done. 'Playing my cards right' doesn't matter if someone just wants to murder people.

    For a broader argument -- what if I'm interested in the combat itself, but not the execution? I'm playing a character that may cause conflict, and I want to get into sticky situations.. but I'm interested in non-S2K. Am I supposed to expect other players to indulge in that? I don't really think that's a reasonable assumption, to expect other players to cater to my whims - but I can see it becoming something of an issue for more narratively focused roleplayers and thus limiting the extent of your base.

    To summarize, I've just played on and ran S2K-based servers in the past and found it somewhat lacking in actual depth. The players look at the rest of the environment as things to be ignored, simply moving from S2K opportunity to S2K opportunity even if subtly. Regardless, as stated before, it's very possible that a project like this simply isn't something certain people (like myself) are interested in. I just thought it'd be good to give some perspective from someone who doesn't so much enjoy the style you're going for so you can address possible pitfalls.
     
  6. Zig

    Zig Legend Clockwork Customer Active Member

    IS often is a keyword- I don't believe in stretching narratives to the limit of a specific character just dying. People have impact on the environment around them. I can't reply to a generalization of what you believe to be frequent.

    In assumption, the most basic primitive thing to do is to shut up someone you disagree with, I understand that. That's still not my responsibility in order to cater to, I understand what you're getting at, but it isn't exactly relevant in roleplay value/how combat is handled besides the actual dishing of the combat itself, so I'm not exactly sure of what you're getting at here.

    So, if you're saying people don't fight- it's bad and boring for a gamified schema- yet if they do fight on a gamified schema and it doesn't appeal to what you feel is /not/ the minority in terms of "roleplay based combat", it's also bad. Where's the alternative to your argument? Do what you do so people can fling shit at each other- without having to be good at the game?

    If you can't see the opportunity in the base interaction between individuals and see the pure climax of any relationship between characters as /combat/, then I'm not sure what to tell you. I can't tell if that's just how you feel in regards to the standard of ability on a regular roleplay server, or your abilities to construct and interact with individuals with your characters regularly.

    Your choices reflect your ultimatum, if you're at the wrong place at the wrong time, it's your fault for not taking your surroundings and actions into consideration, not mine or anyone else. Call it fate, or bad luck, but for the most part beyond the scheme you're assigned from birth, you have a great amount of malleable space for your own actions. Things are easily avoidable, and I still believe that. It's all about how cautious and careful you are with how you act and represent yourself in the environment. You probably aren't going to get shot within the confines of doing nothing unless it's a random mugging, which in itself- because you have to have something for someone to steal, and in that itself, required you to put it on and show that you had it-- a choice you made. (This is an example, in context- people can't just mug you for having things. I made that a rule.)

    Yes, the environment plays you, not the other way around. The server doesn't work and tender to your direct needs constantly and what you find most optimal. If you played your cards incorrectly, that's your fault and that's the risk you took by playing. If you don't care for the system in place, then you probably wouldn't be playing the server.

    Okay but that's literally not possible- there are rules and guidelines as to why and how you go about killing someone. Certain things are admittedly out of your control, but not to the sense and scale that you seem to be emulating it to be where you're implying you have no chance.

    If you're not good at shooting, maybe be creative like real political leaders are and get idiots to do it for you.

    No, but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's not like everyone on this server joins for a Quake like session. People want to /roleplay/ on Alexpill, a niche and controversial topic just happens to be combat. In regards as to why I advertised it, it's because it's one of the few things I /can/ advertise.

    I'm sure that's because the environment was uninteresting and perhaps well familiar- and I'd say the goal of the server is the counter opposite of slaughtering each other, and that's shown through things I can't say without spoiling, and the premise on which the server was written and built around: which was cooperation and discovery. There's no reason a server cannot be just as interesting to read as it is to play. This will have bumps and things to tweak. Everything cannot be perfect without an actual population to test it on.

    Then don't play. I'll agree that this isn't for everyone. People cater to different needs, and if you need something more safe and reliable which doesn't require you to what would be quoted as "backing up your shit", then yeah, somewhere you can roll for your combat initiatives or describe physical attributes in P2L situations (which I find to be more sticky than anything), is your cup of tea and I'll fully support that you probably shouldn't play here. If the combat isn't your dig, and you really wanna be someone provocative, then you're either going to have to get creative or find something else that will suit that kind of environment. I've always made it the forefront for people to make interesting roleplay characters and interact and take advantage of the environment over killing each other, and put several things in place to support so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  7. I appreciate you taking the time to actually respond to me point-by-point. You've cleared up a good few of my concerns with the system and its presumed intent, as much as we probably disagree about what may/may not happen in practice. I apologize for some of the exaggerations or assumptions I may have made in my earlier statements, however, and I'm glad to have more information on the specifics of your systems now.

    Judging by your responses, the major design philosophy you hold to is player freedom and consequence, which I'm alright with - but you're correct in assuming I don't hold much faith in the average roleplayer to really understand the scale of their own capacity for influence. Whenever I see servers that operate on the philosophy of, "You can do it if you want to!", they often don't really understand that players are so used to explicitly not being able to do what they want that they don't even try. Or worse, they've never even learned how to be autonomous or create/sustain roleplay. As much as that is their fault in some way, it never bodes well for the success of a server and just hoping that they do things on their own leads to the death of many projects. You seem to have something of a handle on that possibility, though, judging by some things you've said.

    I'm curious to see if this project is niche enough to attract dedicated roleplayers but keep out the usual idiots, in conclusion. In theory, though, this is looking alright for those interested. I'm curious to see how things turn out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  8. Zig

    Zig Legend Clockwork Customer Active Member

    It's not like I'm completely relying on the player base here. As much freedom as I give to let them interact with each other, it'll happen naturally where the most creative people will probably be at the top in the more successful groups. As stated in the main thread, it's a cooperation between the playerbase and the administrative team. Administrators aren't absent in influencing and facilitating roleplay. As much as I'd love to give people just a blank canvas and some tools, it's unrealistic. People come to the server to play, not to run it- at least all around. Many people want to ascend to the top and establish themselves powerful. How the playerbase interjects and uses themselves as judge, jury, executioner is up to them.

    Yet again, I think that's mainly an environmental thing. It doesn't work with HL2RP, because you really can't be whatever you want to. There's a lot of strict guidelines onto what's achievable in that Universe, and the only creative liberty you might get is with your backstory and a few physical details.

    Keeping out idiots is my job- however, I can't say I really designed it to be niche in mind? The idea of advertising or talking about your server is kind of to get it out there and get people playing/trying, but I get what you mean. I'm assuming you mean the large wave of generally uncreative script mongers who love to collection Nebulous ratings on forums. I can't say I like all of those people, some of them are good, but you're correct in assuming that the majority haven't had as much freedom and that the implication of such a thing might be hard to facilitate, just like you said. I built an entirely new universe and environment to counter-act such a thing, and with hopes that people understanding it's new, they can practically do anything.

    I intended at one point, early on, to make the opening event for Alexpill completely tutorial-esque and introduce everyone with a robotic version of Ronald Reagan, then have the robot give the playerbase pots and pans and tell them to go beat the shit out of a local bar owner. The whole idea of opening events in my mind is to give small glimpses of what is available and achievable on the server altogether, and seam it into one big event.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. VerrockLedorBerk

    VerrockLedorBerk Active Member

    RELEASE UR SERVER UGH
     
    • Agree Agree x 1